Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Laminated Necks
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=31344		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  David LaPlante [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Laminated Necks
I've got a request to do a laminated neck, I'm not experienced with these having done solid, scarfed and "V" joint and separate heel blocks up till now.
I would most likely use some nice flatsawn Spanish Cedar which will give me nice vertical grain once glued up most likely using Titebond.
My big question is:
What is preferred for the dark accent laminations?
Is there any glue adhesion issues with woods such as ebony, Indian rosewood or bloodwood which might be used in this way.

Also will a double action truss rod at this location tend to pop this joint?
Author:  peterm [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
So far I have used all laminations you mentioned using Titebond original...
Truss rods will be just fine. [:Y:]
Author:  Steve Saville [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
David LaPlante wrote:
..........What is preferred for the dark accent laminations?.........

I use walnut.
Author:  DannyV [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
In a perfect world I would try to have an accent lamination that jived with the back strip or tied in some way to the rest of the build. If not, black veneer looks pretty understated and cool.

Cheers,
Danny
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
David...I've used EIR, Padouk, Bloodwood, Walnut and black fish paper for the dark and accent laminates with maple as the light colored laminate.

Original Titebond has worked well for me with 20-something necks over a period of 8 years. I also have used both 2-way truss rods along with 2 CF support rods and have never had a de-lamination issue.
Author:  Corky Long [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
David -

I use HHG for my neck laminates, but I'd assume your experience will be comparable with Titebond.

I've used maple, mahogany, ebony, EIR, and zebrawood. No issues with glue adhesion, delamination or problems with the truss rod. My laminates have been consistently vertical in orientation (in other words, the tension provided by the truss rod has been perpendicular to the laminations and so not putting pressure on the face of the glued surface). I can't speak to the stability of a lamination in the other direction (e.g. parallel to the fretboard).
Author:  Bobc [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
Once the squeeze out is hard I remove the clamps. Usually 1 1/2 days.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
48 hours minimum...generally 72 hours here.
Author:  walnut47 [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
I've used maple, mahogany, walnut and purpleheart with both hide glue and Titebond (not on the same neck). No problems de-lamming or using 2-way rods.
Walter
Author:  David LaPlante [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
Thanks to all for your replies and insights.

BobC, I just spoke to your guy on the phone about ordering a custom blank as soon as my client and I settle on a spec.
Thanks!
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
Peruvian Walnut is a very dark, decorative wood that works well in a neck laminate. It has characteristics similar to mahogany. Indigenous Walnut is nice too but it's hard to get homogenous dark color throughout the board...at least around here it is. Peruvian is always REAL dark and consistent throughout the board. Wenge is good too...denser, harder, and more expensive than Peruvian Walnut.

Also....when using epoxy and laminating light colored woods you may get a glue line that you wouldn't get with wood glues.
I always use epoxy when laminating contrasting woods together....but not for similarly colored woods. For bookmatched maple tops (electrics) I use Titebond.
Author:  oval soundhole [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
I like the way the larson's made them.
Image
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
Filippo, I think epoxy has too much creep to use for a neck lam.
Also, I'm not so sure that the water issue in Titebond is quite the issue that you fear--as did I also.
That said, I like to glue up the neck lams and leave them sitting around to "move" as they will before planing the surfaces straight, usually weeks later.
I once heard that Stanley would cast their plane bodies, in the good old days, then toss them out in the yard for a year before grinding them flat and square.
Seems that would work well, especially if you've got a year to wait for your neck to settle in.

Of course, it won't take that long, but it's a nice story, eh?

Steve
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
Steve Kinnaird wrote:
I once heard that Stanley would cast their plane bodies, in the good old days, then toss them out in the yard for a year before grinding them flat and square.
Steve, I heard the same story about old cast iron table saws.
I use polyurethane glue to laminate necks. I would recommend it for anybody using a dovetail joint. Those who have reset old(er) Guild necks will understand.
Filippo, what's the data on polyurethane glue toxicity? I know about epoxy's fumes, and can't stand it, but PU glue doesn't smell like anything really, and I thought as long as one wears gloves it was OK.
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
I've never had any problem doing laminated necks with fish glue, put on with a roller and clamped for 24hrs. I think too much is made of the problem of water absorption from glues, in the very small layers of glue that remain after clamping, the volume of water compared to the wood is minuscule and changes in air humidity would have a greater impact. If I'm doing multiple laminates then I build them up gradually over a few days. I think that the choice of woods should always reflect the binding or purfling scheme of the guitar.

Here's one I did recently that used pear and ebony to match the purfling scheme, the main neck wood is English Sycamore (maple).

Image

Image

Colin
Author:  Goodin [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
Ive never done laminated necks myself but my pro friend says he stopped using ebony and now uses walnut as the veneer for his mandolins because it glues up better.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
I'm not putting in truss rods, but I've been laminating with LMI White and Fish Glue with no issues. Like Colin, I let it dry clamped for 24 hours or more before removing, and usually clamp against a reasonably flat and rigid surface, then plane them clean and level when done.
Attachment:
P1040733 (Large).JPG
Attachment:
P1040293 (Large).JPG
Attachment:
P1050065 (Large).JPG
Author:  tlguitars [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
I've never had any issues just using Titebond Original, and I only clamp for 6-12 hours on 7-17 piece necks. The best builder here in MN just uses Titebond and his 1350+ necks are good enough for me.

Just buy the $5-6 glue roller and your set. Check out my tut and your ready.
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=30171
Author:  klooker [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
Is anyone using PPR adhesive http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/A ... _Glue.html

I've used it for veneering & Tage Frid used it in his videos. It's a brown powder that you mix with water.

It has a very long working time (about 4 hours) as long as the ambient temp isn't too high & it forms a rigid glue line that doesn't creep. It also has zero fumes.

Kevin Looker
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
I use fish glue for my 2 piece laminated mahogany necks. I am more concerned about grain orientation in the laminates than the type of glue though, and I always make them with opposing grain direction, like so )))((( or so ((())) (fingerboard on top). It seems to make a very nice and stable neck, zero problems so far.


Image
Author:  Billy T [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
Steve Kinnaird wrote:
I once heard that Stanley would cast their plane bodies, in the good old days, then toss them out in the yard for a year before grinding them flat and square. Steve


That's the way it is when ever one uses cast iron in a precision application. Bridgeport mill bodys are done the same way. Internal stresses in cast iron release as the castings are cooled and heated repeatedly. One can force the issue with repeatedly heating and cooling in manufacturing, and or cyrogenic treatments but that's more expensive.

It's amazing how much tool steel, carborized 4130 and just about any other steel moves over time or when material is removed. Just heating in and oven and cooling in a freezer can release stress. I've often considered doing it in wood to see if the same thing would happen.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
4 hours is not enough time for full cure on Titebond. Full strength after 24 hours, I believe it says on the container. I don't use it anymore, but I think that's what I remember. I know it only calls for clamping for 45 minutes or something, but it's not the same. Do a lay-up with it, and clamp it between cauls, then take it out in 24 hours. It'll curl like a potato chip. If you wait for 48 hours or more it is more stable. I always let my glue-ups dry for 3 days clamped in the cauls. I think it's the case of it being still wet on the inside, as was previously stated.
Author:  Brian Forbes [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
I did this Lam neck out of Indian Rosewood and Goncalo Alves, Titebond Original, and a few days of dry and stability time. I have a double action truss rod (home made) in there, and I haven't had an issue with it.

The way I lay it out is to use oversized wood (height, width doesnt matter as much) and glue them all up with bar clamps. Immediately while the glue is still wet, set the block on a flat surface (relatively flat, I use the concrete floor) and press the whole unit aginst the ground to make sure it glues together flat and not banana shaped. After that its a quick trip through the planer then treat it like any other board.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
WaddyThomson wrote:
4 hours is not enough time for full cure on Titebond. Full strength after 24 hours, I believe it says on the container. I don't use it anymore, but I think that's what I remember. I know it only calls for clamping for 45 minutes or something, but it's not the same. Do a lay-up with it, and clamp it between cauls, then take it out in 24 hours. It'll curl like a potato chip. If you wait for 48 hours or more it is more stable. I always let my glue-ups dry for 3 days clamped in the cauls. I think it's the case of it being still wet on the inside, as was previously stated.


Yeah, there's no reason not to let a neck glue-up not set for a day or so, what's the hurry.

Waddy, like your neck glue up but it bothers me that the lam ends at the bottom of the heel block. Aesthetically, I'd rather have it continue through the heel, so I guess if i were doing that I'd want to build it like a steel-string, with an integral heel and a lam that covered everything. I just can't get comfortable with the partial lamination, if it is used at all.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Laminated Necks
All I can say is I've taken cauls apart after 24 hours and there was still wet glue in there. Maybe it was cured wet glue, but it was wet, or damp. Or, maybe like you say the glue was cured but the water remained. In that case, they should not recommend removing clamps in such a short time. Clamps should not be removed until the joint is stable, regardless if whether the glue is "cured" or not. And yes, my cauls are not water removal friendly. They either have tape on them or Melamine and wax.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/